World Science Scholars

3.5 The Search For Life

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    • Professor Walker emphasizes a systems-level approach to look for life on other planets. By analyzing atmospheres as networks, we may be able to discover emergent patterns that indicate underlying information-generating structures—a major clue for life. Which do you think is easier to figure out: What the emergent patterns are or what the rules are that generate those patterns? Explain your thinking.

    • The rules are that generate those patterns.
      Using the model of flocking, we seem to be able to reverse engineer if you will

    • We have yet to discover our own species, or what advances our own life. To seek life elsewhere feels like self extermination. I wonder what a species like ours hopes to find in other forms, if it does not see or even seek to see itself. Perhaps after the human race becomes aware of itself, & it’s existence, advanced life will seek us. The task is to find ourselves. Technology only applies to this search as it is our means of seeing what we can become.

    • Between emergent patterns, and the rules generating those patterns, I think it’s easier to “figure out” a major clue for life elsewhere by knowing the rules that generate the patterns. We may find microbes under the ice on that one moon of Jupiter’s (is the moon’s name Europa?). There may be a slightly more evolved life under Europa’s ice; (like tube worms found in our ocean’s floor near the very deep volcanoes), but that would be very expensive if we drilled through the ice to find out. We launched the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST). I say if that doesn’t do the trick in finding “Worlds of Water”, forget trying any other technique. I believe outside of using the space telescope, we won’t find life in our solar system.
      Yet, if we don’t find life with space telescopes within three or four generations of such machines, with humans using those machines, I doubt space telescopes will ever find other planets with life’s chemical signatures. Light spectrum analysis is the only method. The JWST is expensive, but I’ll bet it’s far cheaper to send twenty upgrades of JWST’s throughout the next 300 years than drilling through Europa’s ice sheet.
      So, the only answer: looking for life elsewhere is a trivial pursuit of the rich. I’m not complaining. I’m merely stating that breaking the laws of physics isn’t easy, and any planet with signs of life is on a scale of distance away from us that not only can we never get there, neither can any intelligent species of Aliens capable of the trip make the trip to us. Traveling faster than light is fantasy today, and will be tomorrow. No Star Fleets are allowed. Also, the rich aren’t the only ones wanting to know if life is possible elsewhere. So, I believe that we will probably even spend the money on drilling through Europa’s ice sheet if it comes down that. The rich should also be asking if there are ways to find “that possible way” to find life under Europa’s ice sheet in addition to building newer versions of JWST’s. The rich have sub-elites asking those questions already. I suppose they are exploring the same logic I am when I state, “it might be cheaper in the long run to plan now for a very, very, very, very slow (many decades slow) drilling through Europa’s ice. It may be cheaper than JWST-2. If microbial-scale life is there, it will be easy to find if ubiquitous under the ice. Other methods include investing in technology to “sense” through the ice – possibly with a micro-miniature “hot-shaft” through the ice until a sufficient depth for a micro-miniature “tunnel-scope” to magnify a cheaper instrument in Earth orbit as an amplification of the cheap probe system. Alien atmospheres as networks become integrated with wise economics under the banner, “we tested it close to home, we found microbes in Europa, and this knowledge of how will help us find it 5,000 light years from Earth”.

      • As far as i agree with the possibility of new opportunities associated with gains, that would come from discovering micro organisms on other planets in our solar system, or far beyond, I strongly believe that such projects that go along the lines of drilling through the ice sheets of Europa generate more costs than they are worth, mostly because, as far as expanding the horizons of biology goes, the probability of such findings is, dare I say, is as microscopic as the findings themselves would be, compared to the costs of such undertakings.

    • excellent

    • Hello Ladies and Gentlemen,

      It is easier to look for the, and any, emergent patterns.

      Something we find in Astronomy is that the scale of what is studied is often beyond comprehension.

      When we see something we can easily recognize, it is on our scale of things to recognize.

      The same holds true at the other end of science, in micro biologies.

      Our senses are not often easily there- we need tools and tool extensions to discover nanos and super massives.

      So the Goldilocks principles of being

      just right

      allows emergent patterns to be easier to recognize, for our individualization.

      While i lived in Nunavut, i did have seven foxes for pets. Two were part husky by proximity to humans without the typical jitters that wildlife usually has.

      I`ll be wrong.

      Nunavut has a near outter-space biome. I was on a tree-line region. These seem to follow radiation exposure levels sometimes, not eco-potential levels.

      Recognizing, and surviving this biome led me to write a series called ICE LIGHTS – relevant to relate southern science to continual bafflement of the circumpolar region without our usual equitorial spin.

      Attatched is my eventually planned Doctoral thesis- so far.

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    • I think the easiest is to find emerging patterns. Because the search for the rules that generate these patterns is already done and it may be easier to find them, something that has not been possible until now, which may indicate the difficulty of this search mode.

    • 2222

    • We have yet to discover our own species, or what advances our own life. To seek life elsewhere feels like self extermination. I wonder what a species like ours hopes to find in other forms, if it does not see or even seek to see itself. Perhaps after the human race becomes aware of itself, & it’s existence, advanced life will seek us. The task is to find ourselves. Technology only applies to this search as it is our means of seeing what we can become.

    • An emergent property is a property which a collection or complex system has, but which the individual members do not have. From internet

    • It’s easier to look for the emergent patterns. A large group or flocking with a special structure can become the mother of emergence. When we see emergence as an evolutionary phenomena, a certain pattern is born. Then, a new pattern evolves based on that pattern. This will recur many times as time goes. The underlying formation rules in it can be identified to understand the complexity.

    • I think that the patterns are the quickest and best way to find life on another planet. Patterns are easier to notice, and as Roger Guay said, in this same discussion, that we could reverse engineer the patterns to determine life. If we can find the patterns, we could also find other information that would help us find more than just life, but an intelligent society of aliens.

    • Determining whether it is easier to discover emerging patterns or the underlying rules that generate them may depend on the specific context and available information. But I believe it is easier to identify emerging patterns than to determine the precise rules that generate them. Some reasons for this would be:

      Complexity of systems: Natural systems, such as planetary atmospheres, are often complex and involve multifaceted interactions and processes. Identifying the exact rules that govern these systems can be extremely challenging, as it requires a deep understanding of the complex interactions and a comprehensive analysis of all the factors involved.

      Limited data: In most cases, the information available about a system is limited and subject to uncertainty. Collecting detailed and accurate data to identify the underlying rules would require a significant amount of precise observations and measurements, which can be difficult or impractical in many contexts.

      Simplified modeling: To understand a complex system, it is often necessary to simplify and create models that capture the main observed emerging patterns. These models can provide useful information about observed patterns, but they may not capture all the nuances and details of the underlying rules.

      It is clear that the discovery of emerging patterns can provide valuable insights into the presence of information-generating structures and, in turn, into the possibility of life. Complex, non-random patterns can indicate the existence of biological processes, such as the presence of gases produced by living organisms, that leave a detectable signature in the atmospheres. Therefore, while identifying underlying rules can be challenging, detecting and interpreting emerging patterns can be indicative of biological phenomena or other interesting processes that deserve further investigation.

    • I believe that both perspectives allow for a broader scope in explanation and perspective. Philosophically speaking, systems, theory, science and art, the emergence occurs when a complex entity has properties or behaviors that it’s parts do not have on their own and emerge only when they interact in a wider hole. Many water molecules join together to form river flows and ocean waves. There’s obviously an existence or formation of collective behaviors and properties that arise from the properties of parts on a larger and finer scale. But then again, one can actually think about how trees, other plants and animals help form a forest. We can see them at the same time in order to see how they are related, even though our mind’s eye is moving among views at different scales. Then we have more conventional methods. We May assign properties to a system that are actually properties of a relationship. Instead of describing the environment, we may just look at the system itself, until we implicitly can provide a description for a relationship. Indeed, we live in an emergent universe, in which is difficult to study any social or economic behavior that is not emergent. As far as regular and intelligible forms of patterns or concerned, the universe tends towards disorder; just as our bedrooms get messy over time if we don’t straighten them up and gases tend to disperse across a room. We know it takes energy to create order. So when seeing a particular pattern, we expect through investigation we can identify the force that caused it – cause and effect. Is the pattern important? Is it meaningful? Do both parallels have similar constructs? I firmly believe that every branch of science could contribute to a better understanding and broader perspective on all life forms in general. Nothing is absolute.

    • Analysing the atmosphere will be easier and cheaper. But we can only have rough guess.
      Which type of pattern and how they emerge , are according to specific life a specific planet have.
      But surely every form of life will change their surroundings. So when we will analyse potential planet for a little long time. We will be able to guess , even that particular form of life will be completely different from us(whole earth)

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